The old debate…again
Question:
As of noon today, this has become a criminal investigation 
Housebreaking, HOWELING, And CRIMINAL INSANITY "Why do I think Koehler’s method is more humane than others?" asks lying frosty dahl. Hello amy,
Personally, I think Lisa is pilloried for talking about how well she is doing by using Jerry’s manual. If it were a different persons manual but the same content, with Koehler`s name on it, for example, or Barry Easton, I do not believe she would be jumped on the way she has been. You’re entitled to your opinion, of course, but it isn’t borne out by the facts.
Coming from a proven liar, that’s a laugh… Ron Hardin promotes Koehler in much the same way Lisa promotes Jerry’s stuff.
You and dogman and cindy promote koehler, as do many others, including professor lyingdoc dermer, professora "chin cuff don’t mean slap" gingold, and our friend ed w of pet loss dot con. Our rpdb regulars are predominantely koehler trainers. In particular he has one dog with whom he has accomplished limited things, but he seems to think he knows the answers for everybody.
It’s all in the koehler book. Except when it don’t work, the dog DIES. Ron comes and goes here, but when he’s here, he gets a reaction pretty much like Lisa’s getting.
You’re an outright liar, dahl. A lot of people ignore him, and a lot of others despise him.
That’s not true at all. Ron is the ONLY koehler trainer here who hasn’t been busted for lying about his abusing dogs. It’s not the method he has chosen to subscribe to, it’s the fact that he’s promoting a method based on very little experience.
That makes absolutely no sense whatsoever. Amy Dahl
Your words: "From where I sit, there is a difference. I haven’t noticed any of the contingent who like Koehler trying to force their method on everyone, or calling others names because they do not use the method. I personally believe the Koehler method is a more humane way of teaching than any alternative I have studied. And I am not averse to learning–I have studied a number of methods. Koehler, of course, stops far short of the specialized work I do with retrievers, and some of the things in his book, such as making the dog walk behind the handler on the "finish," are inappropriate for retriever work. Why do I think Koehler’s method is more humane than others? First, I don’t believe "corrections vs. no corrections" is as significant to dogs as it is to people. Applied correctly, Koehler’s method uses *no* intimidation, fear, or emotional manipulation. It is clear and definite, and the handler’s actions are always predictable. The method is masterfully designed to prevent confrontation or vying for control in any way. It places high demands of responsibility on the trainer, and takes a great deal of commitment to do correctly, so it is not for the casual "dabbler." When done well,very few corrections are needed. In brief, I think the clarity, predictability, and absence of emotional blackmail weigh more strongly in the method’s favor, than the occasional brief unpleasantness of correction weighs against it." lying frosty dahl. "The Koehler Method of Dog Training" Howell Book House, 1996": "Housebreaking problems: Occasionally, there is a pup who seems determined to relieve himself inside the house, regardless of how often he has the opportunity to go outside. This dog may require punishment. Make certain he is equipped with a collar and piece of line so he can’t avoid correction. When you discover a mess, move in fast, take him to the place of his error, and hold his head close enough so that he associates his error with the punishment. Punish him by spanking him with a light strap or switch. Either one is better than a folded newspaper. It is important to your future relationship that you do not rush at him and start swinging before you get hold of him. When he’s been spanked, take him outside. Chances are, if you are careful in your feeding and close observation, you will not have to do much punishing. Be consistent in your handling. To have a pup almost house-broken and then force him to commit an error by not providing an opportunity to go outside is very unfair. Careful planning will make your job easier. The same general techniques of housebreaking apply to grown dogs that are inexperienced in the house. For the grown dog who was reliable in the house and then backslides, the method of correction differs somewhat. In this group of "backsliders" we have the "revenge piddler." This dog protests being alone by messing on the floor and often in the middle of a bed. The first step of correction is to confine the dog closely in a part of the house when you go away, so that he is constantly reminded of his obligation. The fact that he once was reliable in the house is proof that the dog knows right from wrong, and it leaves you no other course than to punish him sufficiently to convince him that the satisfaction of his wrongdoing is not worth the consequences. If the punishment is not severe enough, some of these "backsliders" will think they’re winning and will continue to mess in the house. An indelible impression can sometimes be made by giving the dog a hard spanking of long duration, then leaving him tied by the mess he’s made so you can come back at twenty minute intervals and punish him again for the same thing. In most cases, the dog that deliberately does this disagreeable thing cannot be made reliable by the light spanking that some owners seem to think is adequate punishment. It will be better for your dog, as well as the house, if you really pour it on him. Some of the new "breaking scents" on the market can aid in your house-breaking program. One type discourages the dog from even visiting an area. Another encourages him to relieve himself in the area where it is sprinkled. Your pet shop should be able to supply further information on the brands available in your district. Be fair to your dog in what and when you feed him and be consistent in your efforts to housebreak him, and you’ll soon accomplish the job. BARKING, WHINING, HOWLING, YODELING, SCREAMING, AND WAILING The fact that you realize you have such a problem makes it certain you have "reproved" the dog often enough to let him know you were against his sound effects, even though your reproving didn’t quiet them, so we’ll bypass the loudly clapped hands, the cup of water in his face, and the "shame-shames" and start with something more emphatic. We’ll begin with the easiest kind of vocalist to correct: the one that charges gates, fences, doors, and windows, barking furiously at familiar or imaginary people and objects. A few clusters of BBs from a good slingshot, in conjunction with the light line and plenty of temptations, will cause such a dog to use his mind rather than his mouth. But you won’t make the permanent impression unless you supply dozens of opportunities for him to exercise the control he thus acquires. Make sure these opportunities don’t always come at the same time of the day, else he may learn to observe the "quiet hour" and pursue his old routines at other times. With the help of the light line, it will be easy to follow the BBs with a long down to make sure he gets the most from his lesson. As was mentioned before, eliminating the senseless barking will not lessen the dog’s value as a watchdog but rather, as he grows more discriminating, increase it. The dog who vocalizes in bratty protest or lonesomeness because you’re gone constitutes a different problem. If it is impractical for someone to stay with him constantly (there are owners who cater to neurosis by employing dog sitters), you’ll have to heed the neighbors and the law and quiet the dog. This calls for a little ingenuity as well as a heavy hand. Attach a line to your dog’s collar, so your corrective effort doesn’t turn into a footrace around the house until you reach a stalemate under the bed. This use of the line in the correction will also serve to establish it as a reminder to be quiet as the dog drags it around when you’re not present. Next, equip yourself with a man’s leather belt or a strap heavy enough to give your particular dog a good tanning. Yup-we’re going to strike him. Real hard. Remember, you’re dealing with a dog who knows he should be quiet and neighbors who have legal rights to see that he does. When the noise comes, instead of trying to sneak up to the door so you can barge in while he’s still barking, which is generally impossible, respond to his first sound with an emphatic bellow of "out," and keep on bellowing as you charge back to his area. Thunder through the door or gate, snatch up the belt that you’ve conveniently placed, and descend on him. He’ll have no chance to dodge if you grab the line and reel him in until his front feet are raised off the floor or, if he’s a big dog, until you’ve snubbed him up with a hitch on something. While he’s held in close, lay the strap vigorously against his thighs. Keep pouring it on him until he thinks it’s the bitter end. A real whaling now may cut down somewhat on the number of repeat performances that will be necessary. When you’re finished and the dog is convinced that he is, put him on a long down to think things over while you catch your breath. After fifteen or twenty minutes, release him from the stay and leave the area again. So that you won’t feel remorseful, reflect on the truth that a great percentage of the … read more »
Response:
http://www.globeandmail.com/servlet/story/RTGAM.20040205.wwith02 07/BNSt ory/ National/ Thanks, Kate. Wow. That’s a horrible story. I hope they find it’s some kind of horrible accident, rather than some rotten son-of-a-bitch of a dog hater. :( Didn’t something very much like this happen in Oregon
recently? Controlled pesticide, dog park, controversy, etc… Yep, not in an off leash area (not that all ppl follow the rules) I never heard that anyone was caught. Michelle
professional trainers, John and Amy Dahl. "Around four months many puppies can withstand a correction. Unfortunately this is the time they start teething and if their mouth hurts, they may act generally sensitive. If this is the case, be patient and wait for all those baby teeth to fall out. In training, retrievers often respond to physical correction better than verbal correction. While "NO!" is extremely useful if puppy is about to bite an electrical cord or steal food off the table, when you are teaching them something (like obedience) a sharp jerk on their lead or swat with a stick gets the message across with less emotion and less effect on their confidence. If they drop the dummy and act like their mouth hurts when they are teething, stop all retrieving and wait for their mouth to feel better. A correction should be just severe enough to get the dog to respond. Repeated weak corrections are very stressful to the dog." END lyingfrosty dahl If you are interested in purchasing a dignified stick to lay across you puppy’s arse, just send a personal check or money order in the amount of $30-$40 for a 30"-40" long whuppin stick. These all natural hickory switches will outlast an entire litter of puppies! MAYBE MOORE!! Supplies limited, so HURRY! Be the first in your club to have the hickory switch training aid guaranteed for the life of your dog (which may be much shorter than nature intended!). Ask yourself: "HOWE COME DOESN’T JERRY HURT DOGS TO TRAIN THEM?" And then just answer: "On AccHOWENT Of JERRY KNOWS HOWE TO TRAIN DOGS WITHOUT HURTING THEM." And THEN SAY OUT LHOWED: "IGNORE JERRY, HE’S MEAN TO DOG ABUSERS." You can get all the information you need to PUPPERLY handle and train your dog using non force, non confrontational, scientific and psychological methods, in your FREE copy of The Puppy Wizard’s FREE WWW Wits’ End Dog Training Method Manual.
"Nope. That "beating dogs with sticks" things is something you twisted out of context, because you are full of bizarro manure." Amy lyingfrosty dahl LIES with a straight face and says: "I don’t beat dogs, twist ears, or pinch toes. For the benefit of anyone who is in doubt, and who chooses not to read the article (SHE’D REALLY LIKE IT IF YOU DON’T READ IT!), there is NO mention in it of twisting ears (INDEED, SHE PINCHES THEM WITH SPIKES). I would never slap a dog (SHE TEACHES PEOPLE TO BEAT DOGS WITH STICKS TO MOTIVATE THEM). I would never advise anyone to slap a dog (SHE’S A PROVEN LIAR AND DOG ABUSER, do you expect her to ADMIT THE TRUTH???). I do not believe there is a single circumstance, ever, where slapping a dog is anything but destructive." RIGHT. She PINCHES, not twists… and chin cuff doesn’t mean hit, according to lyinglynn and avrama…. amy lyingfrosty dahl continues: "Get a stick 30- or 40-inches long. You can have a helper wield the stick, or do it yourself. Tougher, less tractable dogs may require you to progress to striking them more sharply. REPEAT, VARYING HOW HARD YOU HIT THE DOG. Now you are ready to progress to what most people think of as force-fetching: the ear pinch. Make the dog’s need to stop the pinching so urgent that resisting your will fades in importance. but will squeal, thrash around, and direct their efforts to escaping the ear pinch even get a studded collar and pinch the ear against that if the dog still does not open its mouth, get out the shotshell. Try pinching the ear between the metal casing and the collar, even the buckle on the collar. Persist! Eventually, the dog will give in With your hand on the collar and ear, say, ‘fetch.’ Immediately tap the dog on the hindquarters with the stick. Repeat "fetch" and pinch the ear all the way to the dummy. You can press the dog’s ear with a shotshell instead of your thumb; Say ‘fetch’ while pressing the dummy against its lips and pinching its ear." Gotta LOVE koehler. dahl makes koheler look like St. Francis. "Many People Have Problems Getting The Pinch Right, Either They Do Not Pinch Enough, Or They Have A Very Stoic Dog. Some Dogs Will Collapse Into A Heap. About The Ear Pinch: You Must Keep The Pressure Up," sindy "don’t let the dog SCREAM" mooreon, author of HOWER FAQ’s pages on k9 web. You think HURTING a HUNTING DOG to MAKE IT HUNT is NECESSARY??? "Well, Jack Did Hit My Dog. Actually I’d Call It A Sharp Tap Of The Crook To The Nose. I Know Jack Wouldn’t HaveDone It If He Thought Solo Couldn’t Take It. I Still Crate Him Because Otherwise I Fear He Might Eat My Cat," melanie. You think allowing a "FEAR AGGRESSIVE MAN SHY" dog to be BEATEN by a strange male trainer is INTELLIGENT BEHAVIOR for a DOG LOVER? "Warning: Sometimes The Corrections Will Seem Quite Harsh And Cause You To Cringe. This Is A Normal Reaction The First Few Times It Happens, But You’ll Get Over It."mike duforth, author: "Courteous Canine." You think HURTIN dogs and CRINGING is COURTEOUS? "I have heard advice stating that you should pre-load your dog for Bitter Apple for it to work as efficiently as possible. What does this mean?" Means the author is a dog abuser of the worst magnitude. "When you bring home the Bitter Apple for the first time, spray one squirt directly into the dog’s mouth and walk away. The dog won’t be too thrilled with this but just ignore him and continue your normal behavior." You think HURTING your dog is NORMAL BEHAVIOR? –Mike Dufort author of the zero selling book "Courteous Canines" You think HOWER pals are playin with a full deck? Jerome Bigge writes: I do know that hitting, hurting your dog will often make the dog either aggressive or a fear biter, neither of which we want to do. And then we got, matty! Follow his discussion! This is what’s called, a liar and dog abuser: And neither does anyone else, Jerome. No matter what Jerry Howe states. lyinglynn writes to a new foster care giver: For barking in the crate – leave the leash on and pass it through the crate door. Attach a line to it. When he barks, use the line for a correction. - if necessary, go to a citronella bark collar. Lynn K.
That’s INSANE. Ain’t it. So’s this, here’s YOU, professor SCRUFF SHAKE: "At this point, "No" does not have any behavioral function. But, if you say "No,"pick up the puppy by its neck and shake it a bit, and the frequency of the biting decreases then you will have achieved too things. First, the frequency of unwanted chewing has decreased; and two, you have established "No" as a conditioned punisher. How much neck pulling and shaking? Just the minimum necessary to decrease the unwanted biting. When our dog was a puppy, "No" came before mild forms of punishment (I would hold my dog’s mouth closed for a few seconds.) whereas "Bad Dog" came before stronger punishement (the kind discussed above). "No" is usually sufficient but sometimes I use "Bad Dog" to stop a behavior. "Bad Dog" ALWAYS works." That’s HOWE COME your dog has OCD behaviors and is deathly ill from The Puppy Wizard’s SYNDROME. "Just Want To Second Jerry’s Method For Dealing With This (Destructive Separation Anxiety). I’ve Suggested It To Quite A Few Clients Now And It’s Worked ‘EVERY TIME The Very First Time’ – marilyn, Trainer, 33 Years Experience. You DO remember KILLFILING MARILYN for her coment above regarding her success with The Puppy Wizard’s Surrogate Toy Separation Anxiety / Bed Time Calming / Submissive Urination Technique (STSA/BTC/SUT)? Perhaps you likeWIZE recall a pediatrician, Dr. Z, who commented that his bed time calming technique was quite similar? You’re scary Marilyn. Marilyn must be quite a disturbed individual. I feel very sorry for her and her family. "His Amazing Progress Almost Makes Me Cry. Your Method Takes Positive Training To The Next Level And Should Really Be Used By All Trainers Who Call Themselves Trainers. Thank You For Helping Me Save His Life," Kay Pierce, Professional Trainer, 30 Years Experience. BUT, giving you the benefit of the doubt, please provide a quote (an original quote, not from one of Jerry Howe’s heavily edited diatribes) that shows a regular poster promoting or using an abusive form of training. BWWWWEAAAHAHAHAHAAAA!!! –Matt. Rocky’s a Dog. lyinglynn writes to a new foster care giver: For barking in the crate – leave the leash on and pass it through the crate door. Attach a line to it. When he barks, use the line for a correction. - if necessary, go to a citronella bark collar. Lynn K.
That’s INSANE. Ain’t it. "Many People Have Problems Getting The Pinch Right, Either They Do Not … read more »
Response:
http://www.globeandmail.com/servlet/story/RTGAM.20040205.wwith02 07/BNSt ory/ National/ Thanks, Kate. Wow. That’s a horrible story. I hope they find it’s some kind of horrible accident, rather than some rotten son-of-a-bitch of a dog hater. :( Didn’t something very much like this happen in Oregon
recently? Controlled pesticide, dog park, controversy, etc… Yep, not in an off leash area (not that all ppl follow the rules) I never heard that anyone was caught. Michelle
HOWEDY kwbrown,
– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – I don’t know if anyone has brought this up here before, so I thought I would, just in case. Most of us are familiar with Wikis, and how they work, but this Wiki is particularly interesting. I found it here(thanks to a Dan Gillmor column): <snip What do you think the chances are that there can ever be one central and essentially exhaustive source of information regarding dogs? And would having one extensive source even be that much of a quantum leap forward, given today’s Internet search-engine capabilities? I like the Wikis’ work – it’s fun to browse around the encyclopedia and see how much accumulated knowledge is within. For a very long time, I have fallen back on the K9web.com FAQs,
INDEED? You mean THIS?: "Don’t Let Your Dog Scream. Use Your Hand To Hold His Muzzle Closed And Tell Him To Quit Moaning," cindymooreon. but they seem to have disappeared recently.
Perhaps that’s on accHOWENT of The Puppy Wizard. I can’t pull them up today.
And you won’t be able t o read Master Of Deception blankman’s viciHOWES web pages pretty soon, either. The breed FAQs were generally strong and there were some good basic behaviour articles. Diane’s Dog-Play site has had lots of great stuff for years,
too. INDEEDY! What a recommendation! Kate
You JUST MURDERED your own DEAD DOG on accHOWENT of THEIR EXXXPERT ADVICE! Here’s HOWE COME: "Many People Have Problems Getting The Pinch Right, Either They Do Not Pinch Enough, Or They Have A Very Stoic Dog. Some Dogs Will Collapse Into A Heap. About The Ear Pinch: You Must Keep The Pressure Up," sindy "don’t let the dog SCREAM" mooreon, author of HOWER FAQ’s pages on k9 web. You think HURTING a HUNTING DOG to MAKE IT HUNT is NECESSARY??? "Well, Jack Did Hit My Dog. Actually I’d Call It A Sharp Tap Of The Crook To The Nose. I Know Jack Wouldn’t HaveDone It If He Thought Solo Couldn’t Take It. I Still Crate Him Because Otherwise I Fear He Might Eat My Cat," melanie. You think allowing a "FEAR AGGRESSIVE MAN SHY" dog to be BEATEN by a strange male trainer is INTELLIGENT BEHAVIOR for a DOG LOVER? To Hold His Muzzle Closed And Tell Him To Quit Moaning," cindymooreon. Hey, check it out? Here’s our cindy "Don’t Let Your Dog Scream" mooreon’s forced fetch page, the one she refused to discuss and threatened to sue us for quoting from. So here it is in full. Barf warning.
Isn’t that funny?
No. I can microchip dogs without blinking
Yes. You only feel good when you’re hurting something. (and check out the needle guage on those puppies sometime if you haven’t before)
Looks can be deceiving like your pronged spiked pinch choke collar. HOWE can we know what a dog feels? You bums want a new definition for hurt. We got to have broken bones or blistered skin to have hurt. but wuss out at the thought of getting a needle let alone giving it to
myself. No doubt. Sadists and cowards only enjoy inflicting pain. –Cindy
Below is your forced fetch page… Hello cindymooreon,
In article A retriever will carry the prey around show everyone, but they don’t have that hard snatch and kill usually – they might mouth the cat but not that hard initial killing bite.
I wouldn’t bet on that. THere’s also the retriever that HAS to have something in his mouth to properly greet his owner.
That’s usually a result of ANXITY from being punished for jumping or mouthing. Some spaniels will learn to grab a wounded bird take one hard bite to stop it fighting and then bring it in gently.
That’s nice of them. Birdies can cause a lot of damage to a dog’s eyes. Some retrievers do that too.
Yeah. You prefer they don’t. I don’t buy that retrieving is a "natural" behavior –
Ever play ball with a dog? I do agree that "carry" drive exists.
Yeah. That’s HOWE COME cindymooreon likes to twist and pinch ears and toes and chuck and cuff and shock dogs to make them do that. For me, the easist dog the train to retrieve is a dog with very high carry drive
That’s pinched choked shocked and beaten into them. and low possessivness,
That’s pinched choked shocked and beaten outta them. with a decent chase drive.
Visual oral reflex. Dogs like that seem to find it very mentally satisfying to play retrieving games.
Because if they don’t play they get jerked and choked and shocked and beaten till they do play. And they get hung if they object to their training. Hm. I think it’s a natural behavior,
Yeah, natural. but very subsceptible to being shaped (and in fact is more commonly *extinguished* than you might expect).
Yeah. Like your pal lying "I LOVE KOEHLER" lynn’s flunkie sar dog Jive… Hey, check it out? Here’s your forced fetch page, the one you refused to discuss and threatened to sue us for quoting from. So here it is in full. Thanks for the FUN: Here’s MOORE reasons why our Gang Of Thugs are EMBARRASSED by their own works. Here’s the post cindymooreon of our faqs page at k9web threatened to sue us for copyright infringement if we quoted it: What is Force Fetching All About? by Cindy Tittle Moore Copyright 1997,1998 by the author; all rights reserved. THE FORCE FETCH Alright! Now you are (finally) ready to force fetch your dog. I repeat, you want to have an experienced person help you out, someone who has already force fetched her own dogs whether for obedience or field. This step in the training entails what is termed avoidance behavior. In a nutshell, the dog is taught how to "turn off" a negative stimulus. He is carefully taught that he has complete control over it. This is a very effective way of teaching, but does require a more astute sense of timing than some other training methods and is very difficult for some people to do, for a variety of reasons. However, if the dog properly knows HOLD at this point, it’s easily done with a minimum of fuss. Return to your quiet starting place, with the dog on a collar and leash in front of you, sitting quietly. Instead of opening his mouth as you have been for the HOLD, put your hand through the dog’s collar (to hold him steady) and with your thumb and forefinger pinch the tip of his ears and say TAKE IT (or FETCH, or whatever you want) Watch his mouth closely — the moment he opens his mouth, pop that dumbbell in, let go of his ear but not the collar, and PRAISE PRAISE PRAISE. Do this three or four times per session. When he is opening his mouth in anticipation of the dumbbell, the next step is to hold the dumbbell just past his lips. This next step is for him to move his head forward that inch (or half inch) necessary to get the dumbbell. At this point, he has a pretty good notion that getting that darned thing into his mouth is the way to turn off the ear pinch. Most dogs will lean forward and get it. That’s his second milestone! Praise, praise, praise and repeat three or four times this session. Remember, I said these sessions were no more than 5 minutes or so each. That’s still true. Gradually extend the distance so he has to reach further to get it. Now here is where a few subtleties come into play. It’s not enough for him to merely reach out and grab it. You want him to commit to getting it. You want him to be intent on getting it. If he sort of limply reaches over and gets it, that’s not what you want. If you pinch him but have to drag him toward the dumbbell, that’s not what you want either. We’re back to the visualization. What do you want him to do? You want him to, if necessary, bust through just about anything to get that dumbbell. So hold on to that collar until you feel him pulling out of it to get that. That’s his committment. You want to say TAKE IT and have him just about explode out to get the dumbbell. As you get further along in this, you will release him when he’s made a good committment — this will help shape a speedy response nicely. I think you can see why it helps to have an experienced person around when you are doing this! It can be difficult to keep all these things in mind when you are actually sitting there with a dog in your hands. About the ear pinch: You must keep the pressure up until the instant he has the dumbbell securely in his mouth. Many people have problems getting the pinch right, either they do not pinch enough, or they have a very stoic dog in which case case a collar … read more »
Response:
HOWEDY liea,
Yup, though no one’s really stressing on that part- -maybe ’cause it happened in an off-leash zone.
You mean, UNLIKE marie’s dog Macula’s TWO ATTACKS on passersbye… There are reports of two children getting sick very shortly after tobagganning at the park: but police say they may have just had the flu–neither child required medical attention and both are back at school already. The violently insane aspect is
"I’d call the SHOCK fence effective and safe. Humane is one of those hot words that people can debate all day so I won’t touch that one. There are people who would call a regular chain link fence inhumane," liea altshuller. exactly what they should be emphasizing.
You mean poison proofing? Or building 8′ fences like you tried to get your city to legislate so your dog Cubbe wouldn’t ESCAPE INTO the neighro’s yard when she ESCAPES YOUR SHOCK FENCE? The people who don’t like dogs and who don’t like off-leash dog parks might do some yelling and screaming and go to a few city council meetings to make their point.
What POINT, liea? That they DON’T LIKE PARKS? Or that they don’t like viciHOWES off leash dogs, like your dog Cubbe and marie’s dog Macula? The person who deliberately puts out poison isn’t some ordinary dog hater.
UNLIKE the DOG LOVER who jerks and chokes her dog on a pronged spiked pinch choke collar and shocks them till Cubbe attacked your only friend and tried to attack the neighbor’s kid when they walked into her SHOCK ZONE? This is a mentally ill individual
INDEEDY. WE GOT PROOF. who is likely to escalate to more violent crimes.
EXXXCEPT that you’re too much of a COWARD. I hope law enforcement in your area looks at the crime that way.
WON fine day law enforcement will look at YOUR CRIMES differently. You don’t have the RIGHT to HURT your dog cause you don’t have the intellect to HOWEtwit the cunning of the domestic puppy dog. As you may have noticed, I have a real thing about dealing with the mentally ill
INDEEDY… "Birds of a feather." as though they hold rational positions that I happen to disagree with.
YOU HURT YOUR DOG AN LIE ABHOWET IT. There’s something far more insidious going on.
INDEEDY. besides just being MENTALLY ILL. –Lia
Here’s PROOF liea is a liar and a dog abuser and a goddamned mental case: Here’s liea’s case history and EXXXPERIENCE with shock fences. Her dog Cubbe nHOWE has a nerveHOWES OCD head shake for which she’s seen the vet:
After talking with the vet yesterday and watching Cubbe all day today, I’m convinced that the shaking is behavioral, not physical. Naturally I’ll continue keeping an eye on her, but when I add everything up, I don’t see symptoms of anything neurological– and the vet agrees. –Lia
"I’d call the SHOCK fence effective and safe. Humane is one of those hot words that people can debate all day so I won’t touch that one. There are people who would call a regular chain link fence inhumane," liea altshuller. Here’s Cubbe ATTACKING a neighbor’s dog just last week, and previHOWEsly attacking liea’s only friend and assaulting a couple kids and escaping her surrHOWEND SHOCK SYSTEM, which MADE HER AGGRESSIVE: "It Was Horrible! I Let Cubbe Out In The Backyard With Her Usual ZAP Collar – The 10 Year Old Child Went To Give Cubbe A Hug She Gave A Snarl-Snap Cubbe Got Cubbe got out in the neighborhood leashless for the first time in roughly 2 years. The first few times were when we first got her before she’d had any training and before we got the electric fence to reinforce the physical one. It was horrible. She paid us no attention, ignored clickers and treats and calls. Make that, it was horrible for us. She had a blast running free and chasing whatever she wanted. For us it was 45 minutes of sheer terror as we tried to catch her. Luckily there wasn’t too much traffic yesterday morning. It had snowed, and the streets weren’t quite clear yet. Jim finally caught her when she was preoccupied with her head down a hole. For 2 years I’ve been giving her a daily long walk in the neighborhood. She now walks pretty nicely on a leash. She gets daily indoor clicker training sessions. She has perfect recalls in the house. She gets intermittent treats for those recalls. She gets plenty of time to run free in the backyard. Her recalls are less reliable there, but I’ve been working on them. I haven’t been as good about introducing the variable reinforcement there, but I have been good about making sure that she’s never tricked into coming into the house when she’d rather be outside. I always call her, give her a treat or praise and let her go again. So I haven’t been a perfect dog trainer, but I don’t think I’m a terrible one. I say that because I’m about to ask y’all for some help in correcting my mistakes, and while I don’t mind criticism for past mistakes, I am hoping you’ll concentrate on what I should do now. Yesterday morning Cubbe had had some nice backyard time. I’d gotten her into the house and was preparing to leave when she escaped straight through the front door and right in front of our noses. She was still wearing the zap collar, but the battery was low. She gave a small yip when she went over the wire, and the chase ensued. We were careful not to scold her once she was caught. Today I let her out in the backyard with her usual zap collar now with a fresh battery. She was waiting by the backdoor to come in when I went to call her. From her excited behavior, I could tell that she fully expected to be let out the front door again so she could have another fun romp in the neighborhood. I’m so filled with anxiety from yesterday’s escapade that I keep checking for her every time I open the door. Later in the afternoon, she was much worse about coming when called even from the backyard. My specific questions: How do I teach recalls when she so clearly knows when she’s in a confined space and when she isn’t? She normally only wears the zap collar when she’s in the backyard because the wire goes around the house and could zap her when she’s near certain windows inside. If I let her get zapped at the front door with the zap collar, can I still take the zap collar off and walk her out the front door with her leash on? I don’t want her to become afraid of the front door. What’s the best emergency procedure if, god forbid, it should happen again? Might Cubbe be ready for harsher training techniques? By this I mean, I’ve been using clicker and treats for Cubbe because she so obviously freaked when we used leash corrections and scoldings when we first got her. I know this is a hard subject to bring up without starting the whole cruelty thread again so I’ll state my opinion once and won’t defend it further: any method can be cruel for some dogs. Even the slightest punishment was wrong for Cubbe at the beginning, but we’ve come a long way since then. She trusts us now as I mentioned in a recent post. Point is, she’s been rewarded for coming, but she’s never been punished, even in the mildest way, for not coming. Is it time for that? What might I look for to tell? Last night we had friends over for dinner with their 3 daughters ages 14, 10 and 7. The girls loved Cubbe and were having a blast clicker training her. I was impressed with how quickly they caught on and how little correction they needed to be consistent with the clicks and treats. Cubbe was fine with the children; she always has been. Just as they were getting ready to go, the 10 year old went to give Cubbe a hug. Cubbe must have felt threatened and confined because she gave a snarl-snap. I was right there, and without thinking I quickly yelled, turned Cubbe over on her back, got in the face and let her know that no snarling is allowed. The girl wasn’t frightened at all, and her parents who were also right there hadn’t realized what had happened. I then asked the snarlee to rub Cubbe’s belly further to reinforce that Cubbe is the submissive one in that relationship. I let Cubbe up and all was fine. I suppose that’s another issue, but I bring it up as part of wondering if Cubbe should be trained with punishments now. Like I said, I did that without thinking, and now I think it was the right thing to do. So how do I apply this to dealing with Cubbe the escapee? –Lia
– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – I need help deciding if I have a real problem with Cubbe that needs immediate attention or if I’m imagining trouble where there is none. Here’s what happened last April the way I described it to a friend at the time: I’m worried about Cubbe. Or rather, I’m kicking myself for doing something stupid. Ellie has been over many times and has always gotten along great with Cubbe. Cubbe is always at the door when I let Ellie in. She’s barky-protective but then stops barking once Ellie is inside. She’s never shown any real aggression. The other night Ellie and I went out together to run an errand. Ellie was coming in the house with packages so I came in first and put Cubbe in the bedroom with Jim so Ellie could get through the door more easily. I could hear Cubbe barking. Once Ellie was inside, I opened the bedroom door for Cubbe. She ran out to attack the intruder. Ellie was trying to be friendly. Ellie put a tooth in Ellie’s finger. Granted the resulting scratch was no worse than the way my cuticles bleed when they get dry and I don’t rub lotion into them every night,
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Response:
HOWEDY liea,
<SIGH If it was poison, then it was put down by a crack-pot: dog-hater
Like anyWON your dogs have intimidated. And if it was poison, a human child could have gotten into it. This is very serious indeed.
Yeah. Imagine. The one responsible could be accused of attempted murder. Yikes!
Suppose your dog Cubbe was to kill a kid? You could be guilty of murder cause you hurt and intimidated your dog to make her GO NUTS: –Lia
"I’d call the SHOCK fence effective and safe. Humane is one of those hot words that people can debate all day so I won’t touch that one. There are people who would call a regular chain link fence inhumane," liea altshuller. Here’s Cubbe ATTACKING a neighbor’s dog just last week, and previHOWEsly attacking liea’s only friend and assaulting a couple kids and escaping her surrHOWEND SHOCK SYSTEM, which MADE HER AGGRESSIVE: "It Was Horrible! I Let Cubbe Out In The Backyard With Her Usual ZAP Collar – The 10 Year Old Child Went To Give Cubbe A Hug She Gave A Snarl-Snap Cubbe Got Cubbe got out in the neighborhood leashless for the first time in roughly 2 years. The first few times were when we first got her before she’d had any training and before we got the electric fence to reinforce the physical one. It was horrible. She paid us no attention, ignored clickers and treats and calls. Make that, it was horrible for us. She had a blast running free and chasing whatever she wanted. For us it was 45 minutes of sheer terror as we tried to catch her. Luckily there wasn’t too much traffic yesterday morning. It had snowed, and the streets weren’t quite clear yet. Jim finally caught her when she was preoccupied with her head down a hole. For 2 years I’ve been giving her a daily long walk in the neighborhood. She now walks pretty nicely on a leash. She gets daily indoor clicker training sessions. She has perfect recalls in the house. She gets intermittent treats for those recalls. She gets plenty of time to run free in the backyard. Her recalls are less reliable there, but I’ve been working on them. I haven’t been as good about introducing the variable reinforcement there, but I have been good about making sure that she’s never tricked into coming into the house when she’d rather be outside. I always call her, give her a treat or praise and let her go again. So I haven’t been a perfect dog trainer, but I don’t think I’m a terrible one. I say that because I’m about to ask y’all for some help in correcting my mistakes, and while I don’t mind criticism for past mistakes, I am hoping you’ll concentrate on what I should do now. Yesterday morning Cubbe had had some nice backyard time. I’d gotten her into the house and was preparing to leave when she escaped straight through the front door and right in front of our noses. She was still wearing the zap collar, but the battery was low. She gave a small yip when she went over the wire, and the chase ensued. We were careful not to scold her once she was caught. Today I let her out in the backyard with her usual zap collar now with a fresh battery. She was waiting by the backdoor to come in when I went to call her. From her excited behavior, I could tell that she fully expected to be let out the front door again so she could have another fun romp in the neighborhood. I’m so filled with anxiety from yesterday’s escapade that I keep checking for her every time I open the door. Later in the afternoon, she was much worse about coming when called even from the backyard. My specific questions: How do I teach recalls when she so clearly knows when she’s in a confined space and when she isn’t? She normally only wears the zap collar when she’s in the backyard because the wire goes around the house and could zap her when she’s near certain windows inside. If I let her get zapped at the front door with the zap collar, can I still take the zap collar off and walk her out the front door with her leash on? I don’t want her to become afraid of the front door. What’s the best emergency procedure if, god forbid, it should happen again? Might Cubbe be ready for harsher training techniques? By this I mean, I’ve been using clicker and treats for Cubbe because she so obviously freaked when we used leash corrections and scoldings when we first got her. I know this is a hard subject to bring up without starting the whole cruelty thread again so I’ll state my opinion once and won’t defend it further: any method can be cruel for some dogs. Even the slightest punishment was wrong for Cubbe at the beginning, but we’ve come a long way since then. She trusts us now as I mentioned in a recent post. Point is, she’s been rewarded for coming, but she’s never been punished, even in the mildest way, for not coming. Is it time for that? What might I look for to tell? Last night we had friends over for dinner with their 3 daughters ages 14, 10 and 7. The girls loved Cubbe and were having a blast clicker training her. I was impressed with how quickly they caught on and how little correction they needed to be consistent with the clicks and treats. Cubbe was fine with the children; she always has been. Just as they were getting ready to go, the 10 year old went to give Cubbe a hug. Cubbe must have felt threatened and confined because she gave a snarl-snap. I was right there, and without thinking I quickly yelled, turned Cubbe over on her back, got in the face and let her know that no snarling is allowed. The girl wasn’t frightened at all, and her parents who were also right there hadn’t realized what had happened. I then asked the snarlee to rub Cubbe’s belly further to reinforce that Cubbe is the submissive one in that relationship. I let Cubbe up and all was fine. I suppose that’s another issue, but I bring it up as part of wondering if Cubbe should be trained with punishments now. Like I said, I did that without thinking, and now I think it was the right thing to do. So how do I apply this to dealing with Cubbe the escapee? –Lia
– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – I need help deciding if I have a real problem with Cubbe that needs immediate attention or if I’m imagining trouble where there is none. Here’s what happened last April the way I described it to a friend at the time: I’m worried about Cubbe. Or rather, I’m kicking myself for doing something stupid. Ellie has been over many times and has always gotten along great with Cubbe. Cubbe is always at the door when I let Ellie in. She’s barky-protective but then stops barking once Ellie is inside. She’s never shown any real aggression. The other night Ellie and I went out together to run an errand. Ellie was coming in the house with packages so I came in first and put Cubbe in the bedroom with Jim so Ellie could get through the door more easily. I could hear Cubbe barking. Once Ellie was inside, I opened the bedroom door for Cubbe. She ran out to attack the intruder. Ellie was trying to be friendly. Ellie put a tooth in Ellie’s finger. Granted the resulting scratch was no worse than the way my cuticles bleed when they get dry and I don’t rub lotion into them every night, but Ellie was understandably scared. Jim ran out and got control of Cubbe right away. I got Ellie some alcohol and a bandage. The scary thing is that, even though the damage is minor, it does qualify as a bite since Cubbe did mean to do it. I guess I should just learn from it and never let Cubbe greet someone like that again, but I’m horribly torn up. I’ve said that I would never keep an aggressive dog. Now the whole issue is so complicated. Cubbe is great even with kids when we meet them in the neighborhood. Since then I’ve been careful not to do anything like that. Then Halloween night Cubbe spent most of the night in the computer room with Jim while I answered the door. She did bark each time she heard the doorbell ring. We did nothing to discourage that. We want her to be barky protective so it made sense for her to bark when she heard people in the neighborhood, especially at night. Later in the evening, Jim put Cubbe on a leash and was hanging out with her in the front hall while I still got the door. One of the first people to come to the door once she was out of the computer room was our neighbor Nicky. I think Nicky is 11 now. He’s known Cubbe since we got her 4 years ago, has always liked her, petted her and asked to come on walks. Nick lifted his mask on the porch so I’d know who it was. Then I invited him into the hall to pet Cubbe. Cubbe snarled and sort of air snapped at him. Of course Jim was right there so no damage was done. Nick didn’t even have to draw his hand away, and he didn’t get scared. Nothing scares that boy. I don’t like this. Twice now Cubbe has been overly protective-aggressive when people have entered the house. Both times they’ve been people she knows and should like. She’s wonderfully nice to people on walks. We don’t have guests over too often so I can’t comment if it’s a growing thing or not. Comments please. Is this a major growing aggression problem? I’d guess it’s territoriality about the house and yard. What do I do about it? I usually put Cubbe on a leash when friends come over and then walk her outside while the friend gets out of her car, and then we walk in together. She’ll still bark when they’re in the house and then calm down. Is that a good idea? Should I be doing something more to make sure this doesn’t escalate? –Lia
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Response:
HOWEDY marie,
.. For those of you who can’t be bothered following local Toronto news (most ofyou I guess) there’s been a disturbing news story developing here since the weekend…
Yeah? DO TELL??? One of our dog parks (of the off leash variety) has been closed since over a dozen dogs who went there this weekend got sick, one of them dying.
SHOWENDS like they ATE POISON, marie. It only takes The Puppy Wizard’s FREE WWW Wits’ End Dog Training Method Manual Students a few minutes to POISON PROOF their dogs, marie. Too bad you folks got your heads so far upper US you don’t know HOWE to train your dogs. Police and public officials are testing water, soil, etc. to try and figure out what happened, but the symptoms (excessive drooling, vomiting, shaking) suggest it could be poison
Unless the grHOWEND suddenly WENT BAD, the dogs ATE POISON. One of the really unfortunate things about this story is how some of the media are turning this into a dog-owner vs. non-owner conflict: one of the local radio shows even had a phone in segment today, asking to hear from the "…dog owners
That be YOU, marie. and dog loathers…"
Like that skateboarder your dog Macula assaulted and knocked off his skateboard. Or the person your dog Macula bit while being walked by your professional dog walker / trainer. BWEEEEEEHAHAHAHAHAHAAA!!! Your dog Macula has even offended all your dog walking pals cause she attacks their dogs and you can’t control her despite several training courses and five or MOORE trainers and behaviorists, marie. REMEMBER??? about their opinions on off-leash areas, dogs in the city, etc.
YOUR OWN POSTING HISTORY make a very good case against off leash dogs and suggests the only SANE PUBIC SAFETY measure is to muzzle ALL dogs in pubic and keep them ALL, leashed. Nothing new got said,
Certainly you could come up with sumpthin NEW, but it’s probably be at the cost of another CITIZEN gettin MOLESTED by your dog Macula. just the same old stories from the non-owners about their children getting "attacked" by off-leash dogs,
Like that innocent skateboarder and pedestrian your dog Macula bit and assaulted and knocked to the grHOWEND, marie. their new shoes getting ruined by dog crap left on the ground and the general noise and chaos that dogs create.
Only the highly trained dogs like your Macula, marie. The dog owners cried about how "the vast majority of us are responsible"
Yeah. You was RESPONSIBLE for your dog attacking them INNOCENT folks passin bye in PUBIC. and how tired they are of being painted by "dog-haters" as one in the same with the few crack-pots who don’t control/pick up after their dogs.
CRACK-POTS, marie? Your the pot callin the kettle black, marie. <SIGH
Sigh. If it was poison, then it was put down by a crack-pot: dog-hater or not.
You mean like them innocent passersbye your dog Macula ATTACKED, marie? Yet it seems that, once again, the lines are being drawn between the two camps-
You mean, between CRACK-POTS who’s dogs attack innocent passersbye Vs people who are AFRAID of GETTIN ATTACKED by your dog, marie? -and no worthwhile dialogue is being encouraged.
What can you say in defense, marie? You’ve done EVERY THING YOU CAN to HURT and INTIMDATE your dog into being NICE, and it hasn’t worked. Marie
When Mamiya went to the priest for personal guidance, he was asked to explain the sound of one hand clapping. Mamiya concentrated on what the sound might be. "You are not working hard enough. You are too attached to food, wealth, and to that sound. It would be better if you died. That would solve the problem." The next time Mamiya appeared before his teacher, he again was asked what he had to show regarding the sound of one hand. Mamiya immediately fell over as though dead. "You are dead, all right, but how about that sound?" Looking up, Mamiya replied: "I haven’t solved that yet." "Dead men don’t speak, get out!," Shakumuni Buddah, adapted with permission from his FREE copy of The Puppy Wizard’s FREE WWW Wits’ End Dog Training Method Manual. The Puppy Wizard’s SYNDROME is the perfect synergy of love, pride, desire, self will, greed, ego, fear, hate, arrogance, disbelief, jealousy, embarrassment, shame, permanence, enlightenment, insult, attrition and conditioning creating adversion, a lowly life condition often expiring from stress related health DIS-EASES as EVIDENCED by the disproportionately high incidences of DEATHLY and CHRONICALLY ILL dogs like professor "SCRUFF SHAKE and SCREAM ‘NO!’ into ITS face for 5 seconds and lock IT in a box for ten minutes contemplation" dermer of the depaertment of ANAL-ytic behaviorISM at UofWI’s Maxie The Magnificently FuriHOWESLY Obsessive Compulsive Masturbator, and PROVEN through professor SCRUFF SHAKE’S CURE of his dog’s recurrent DIS-EASE, right here on The Puppy Wizard’s FREE WWW Wits’ End Dog Training Method Forum. Sit dHOWEN, take off your shoes… an turn your face. Or you’ll get JERRYIZED, just as HOWER dog lovers do to their dogs. HOWER forum at this time is going through it’s extinguishment burst just like your dogs do, HOWER dog lovers have hit the wall and they’re not goin out quietly. That too, is CAUSED BY MISHANDLING. ALL behavior problems are CAUSDED BY MISHANDLING. The Puppy Wizzzard KNOWS better than to FORCE INTIMIDATE or SCOLD a DOG. HOWE COME would HE do that to HOWER dog lovers? CAUSE THEY’RE INTENTIONAL or PATHOLOGICAL LIARS, HYPOCRITES, and SADISTS. Let’s call it tit for tat, a debt repaid, quid pro quo, The Puppy Wizzzard’s JACKPOT. This place is a GOLDMINE for studying the complexities of the deranged human psyche and tinkerin with it… like HOWER DOG LOVERS EXPERIMIENT with TOOLS to HURT and INTIMIDATE HOWER DOGS TO DEATH. This life / death and health threatening event is brought to you Courtesy Of The Puppy Wizzzard. <{}TPW ; ~ ) Welcome Students! It’s the perfect fusion of The Word…, in the physical. That’s HOWE COME we’re all here, IMNTBHO. The Puppy Wizard. <} ; ~ }
