Thoughts on Breathing cycles while running
Question:
At sea level I breathe every 3 to 8 steps depending on my pace. At high altitude I breathe faster. At the Leadville 10K (10,300 ft) I breathed every 2 steps (in on one foot, out on the other) for the first half, which was slightly downhill. Coming back I breathed even faster, about 1.5 stpes per breath, but not synchronized with my running. I don’t breathe that fast in even my hardest sprints at sea level. My 10K time was still about 8 minutes slower than at sea level. (BTW the Leadville (Colorado) 10K is one week before the Leadville 100 mile trail race and covers the first and last 5 km over dirt roads).
Response:
5. If someone breathes 2out/2in all the time, where do they go for more O2 when they run faster?
Granted, I am a race walker. Therefore what I go through may not be the same as what a runner goes through, though I would think they are similar. For paces slower than 10 min/mile, I have never kept track since it is not taxing enough for me to notice. Otherwise I breathe 2in/2out at paces greater than 10 min/mile. Where do I go to get my extra O2 when I am at a race pace of 8:20 versus a training pace of 10:00? I breathe deeper. When I am flat out in a race the most important thing for me is to not go into O2 deprivation until I sprint to the finish line. That means at an 8:20 pace I really have to concentrate on my breathing which includes expanding my lungs to the greatest capacity in the shortest amount of time. It is difficult, and if I lose my concentration, I go into O2 deprivation. When that happens, my pace automatically and involuntarily drops to my training pace. 11. I have found over the years that many people have injuries to one side of their body. One observation is that they use symmetric breathing.
Never heard that before. It is an interesting observation, but one that I do not necessarily agree with. In my case, my right side sustained an "injury" (just a sore muscle behind the knee that rest, stretching, and staying away from steep hills cured). I breathe symmetrically and start my cycle with my left foot. I believe it was the rec.running FAQ that says to do this to try and avoid stiches. It worked for me. At any rate, you have raised some good points Ozzie that I will be thinking about. I may try the asymmetrical breathing on my next walk, if I can remember this discussion at 4 a.m. In addition, I am headed off to be trained by some Olympic race walkers and their coach at the end of January. I have been writing down questions to ask them, and thanks to you, I have two more. Paul — ___
Response:
A repost of some of my thoughts triggered by a discussion between Rob Ridley and Mike Tennent on breathing. Need some feedback from a few people to see if what I am saying is what you are understanding.
Ozzie: I’m not sure how much to snip to keep this thread from growing too long and still make sense. Bear with me. You obviously have given it more thought than I have <g. All your points also reflect my practice. I vary the ratio(?) in a similar manner according to effort and pace. – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text -2. When I am running slowly, 9 to 10 minute pace, I can breathe 8 steps out and 4 or 6 steps in. That means I get one cycle of air every 12 to 14 steps. 3. As I speed up, but maintaining the same cadence I will shorten the breathe cycle so that my perceived effort (Borg Scale) will support my increased speed. 4. As my speed increases I take in the same volume of air with each cycle. I would go from an 8 out/4 in (a cycle would be every 12 steps) to a 6 out/4 in to a 5 out/4 in to a 4out/4in to a 4 out/3 in to a 3out/3in, to a 3out/2in, to a 2out/2in. So not changing my cadence, I can run faster and go from a one breath cycle in 12 steps(8out/4in) to a 3 breath cycle in 12 steps (2out/2in). Why breathe 2out/2in all the time when I don’t need that much O2 to run a slower pace. 5. If someone breathes 2out/2in all the time, where do they go for more O2 when they run faster? Using my breathing as gears, (gotta think about that metaphor), I can maintain the same cadence and go from a 10 minute/mile pace to a 7 minute mile. I use my breathing to support me as I pick up my speed while maintaining the same step cadence. (If you’ve seen the Marine Corps Silent Drill Team, you’ll know what I mean)
I agree. In fact, if I inadvertently breathe a faster ratio than needed, I tend to get side stitches. – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text -6. At times when I am really pushing a run and want to keep my mind from going into panic from O2 deprevation, I use an 3 breath cycle in 8 steps to keep me focused as I keep the body oxygenated. The breathing during the 8 steps is: in/out/in/out/in-in/out-out. This cycle makes it easier to get in a 3rd cycle where most people would only get 2 cycles(2 steps out/2 steps in/ 2steps out/2 steps in). This gives me a slight edge as I am getting one more cycle of air every 8 steps than you are. 7. The problem for most runners with breathing is not that they can’t get enough air in, it’s that they can’t get enough air out. I train people to march in place and count their steps, starting at 10 out/4in and working up to 20 out/2in. People have to gasp for air not because they can’t get enough air in, they haven’t gotten enough air out, so that they can relax on the 2, or 3 or 4 steps of breathing in with no effort.
I have a MD friend who makes that same point. He emphasizes the exhaling. Your body will take care of the inhaling on it’s own. He also recommends breathing out through "pursed" lips to increase the air pressure in the lungs – which faclitates O2 exchange in the lungs. Points 8,9, 10 snipped for shortness. No disagreement. 11. I have found over the years that many people have injuries to one side of their body. One observation is that they use symmetric breathing. That means when you add up the number of steps in one cycle of breathing( 5out/3in; 4out/4in; 9out/3in) and they are even then you will always be landing on the same foot at the beginning of each cycle. With asymmetric breathing (4out/3in, 7out/4in; 5out/2in) every cycle you will be landing or opposite foot at the beginning of each cycle.
Yep. That’s what I’ve read. Then again, maybe we just get injured equally on each side. <g 12. There’s a lot of other "stuff" to talk about but that’s enough overload for now. There will be many who say that this is obsessive/compulsive about counting or changing breathe patterns.
Yeah. But we know it works, right? I don’t even think about it any more. Asymetric breathing is as natural to me as how I lace my shoes. It’s stated: "Just run and your breathing will take care of you." These are some things I’ve played with over the years and taught to a large number of people. I’m interested in hearing your comments. Have any of you read Ian Jackson’s book from a few years ago about Breathe Play.
That’s probably where I picked it up. I think it was excerpted in Runners World. Ozzie Gontang
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Response:
A repost of some of my thoughts triggered by a discussion between Rob Ridley and Mike Tennent on breathing. Need some feedback from a few people to see if what I am saying is what you are understanding. e.g. 3 breath cycles in 8 steps means that for every 8 steps you breathe in and out 3 times. cycle 1 Breath in one step/ Breath out one step (Steps 1 and 2) cycle 2 Breath in one step/ Breath out one step (Steps 3 and 4) cycle 3 Breath in two steps/ Breath out 2 steps (Steps 5 & 6 in/ 7 & 8 out. The idea is that the same volume of air is exhaled and inhaled every cycle. Some quick thoughts and observations on breathing and breathing patterns which I use: 1. Keeping the same cadence, my speed depends on the lean of the body from ankle to the top of the head. The more the lean, the faster I go and the quicker I have to move my foot through its cycle while maintaining the same cadence. 2. When I am running slowly, 9 to 10 minute pace, I can breathe 8 steps out and 4 or 6 steps in. That means I get one cycle of air every 12 to 14 steps. 3. As I speed up, but maintaining the same cadence I will shorten the breathe cycle so that my perceived effort (Borg Scale) will support my increased speed. 4. As my speed increases I take in the same volume of air with each cycle. I would go from an 8 out/4 in (a cycle would be every 12 steps) to a 6 out/4 in to a 5 out/4 in to a 4out/4in to a 4 out/3 in to a 3out/3in, to a 3out/2in, to a 2out/2in. So not changing my cadence, I can run faster and go from a one breath cycle in 12 steps(8out/4in) to a 3 breath cycle in 12 steps (2out/2in). Why breathe 2out/2in all the time when I don’t need that much O2 to run a slower pace. Aren’t I overusing the diaphram unnecessarily-which takes extra energy?
5. If someone breathes 2out/2in all the time, where do they go for more O2 when they run faster? Using my breathing as gears, (gotta think about that metaphor), I can maintain the same cadence and go from a 10 minute/mile pace to a 7 minute mile. I use my breathing to support me as I pick up my speed while maintaining the same step cadence. (If you’ve seen the Marine Corps Silent Drill Team, you’ll know what I mean) 6. At times when I am really pushing a run and want to keep my mind from going into panic from O2 deprevation, I use an 3 breath cycle in 8 steps to keep me focused as I keep the body oxygenated. The breathing during the 8 steps is: in/out/in/out/in-in/out-out. This cycle makes it easier to get in a 3rd cycle where most people would only get 2 cycles(2 steps out/2 steps in/ 2steps out/2 steps in). This gives me a slight edge as I am getting one more cycle of air every 8 steps than you are. 7. The problem for most runners with breathing is not that they can’t get enough air in, it’s that they can’t get enough air out. I train people to march in place and count their steps, starting at 10 out/4in and working up to 20 out/2in. People have to gasp for air not because they can’t get enough air in, they haven’t gotten enough air out, so that they can relax on the 2, or 3 or 4 steps of breathing in with no effort. 8. In a marathon you are in a trance from about mile 15 onward. It is the breathing that keeps the mind focused and in the present. If I am tired, depleted of muscle glycogen and liver glycogen (feeds the brain), I will be moving slowly at a 10 minute/mile pace and breathing with a 2 cycle breath for 8 steps or even a 3 cycle breath for 8 steps. I need the O2 to keep the mind and body going since I’ve depleted the energy stores. 9. If you listen to a respirator, it is so monotonous that it can put you to sleep. Breathing for me is that respirator. I breath out as many steps as comfortable to support my pace so that I can relax in for 2,3,4, or more steps. I never gasp for air. I have gotten all the air out, and figuratively created a vaccuum so that when I relax the diaphram, the atmosphere breathes me. 10. When running with someone and using an even number of breathes in and out, i.e. (3out/3in; 4out/4in; 2out/2in) I do reciprocating breathe. Your 2out are my 2/in and vice versa. So after a while we have created a reciprocating engine where I am breathing you and you are breathing me. As you breathe out, you are helping me breathe in. Again, it further helps the trance state occuring in longer distances. It calms the mind/brain, which always wants to know that it has enough O2 so that it won’t have to worry. 11. I have found over the years that many people have injuries to one side of their body. One observation is that they use symmetric breathing. That means when you add up the number of steps in one cycle of breathing( 5out/3in; 4out/4in; 9out/3in) and they are even then you will always be landing on the same foot at the beginning of each cycle. With asymmetric breathing (4out/3in, 7out/4in; 5out/2in) every cycle you will be landing or opposite foot at the beginning of each cycle. 12. There’s a lot of other "stuff" to talk about but that’s enough overload for now. There will be many who say that this is obsessive/compulsive about counting or changing breathe patterns. It’s stated: "Just run and your breathing will take care of you." These are some things I’ve played with over the years and taught to a large number of people. I’m interested in hearing your comments. Have any of you read Ian Jackson’s book from a few years ago about Breathe Play. Ozzie Gontang – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – (snipped) I’ve never tried 2×1, but you have my curiosity up enough that I will try it now. Thanks! Rob Ridley, Cochrane, Alberta Try it, it’s different. I breathe asymetricly all the time when running. Supposedly it keeps you from favoring any one leg strike. I have no idea if it accomplishes anything, but why be normal? It takes some concentration when you first do it, but after a while it becomes second nature. I would imagine it’s nearly impossible to do while wearing headphones with music. Mike Tennent
– In health and on the run, Ozzie Gontang Maintainer-rec.running FAQ Director, San Diego Marathon Clinic, est. 1975
