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Amen….I love that, too. — You can learn many things from children. How much patience you have, for instance.
– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – Gary said: DON’T TAKE ANYTHING PERSONALLY. Nothing others do is because of you. What others say and do is a projection of their own reality, their own dream. When you are immune to the opinions and actions of others, you won’t be the victim of needless suffering. Gary, I love this! I really have never looked at it like that. One of my biggest things is taking what someone says or does personally. The above statement really puts it into perspective. I should print it and tape it to my wall! I always enjoy "reading you." Take care, Vicki
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Hi Vicki: I hope things are going ok for you re. the storm, your son and all the details. I wish I could claim authorship of that little four-pronged approach, but it’s really just me citing someone else’s work – and they are actually citing a spiritual/philosophic point of view and fusing it with their own ideas about making agreements with one’s "self", others, God and ultimately with life. The Toltecs were, I think, the ones who originally authored the basic ideas. Take good care as always G
– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – Gary said: DON’T TAKE ANYTHING PERSONALLY. Nothing others do is because of you. What others say and do is a projection of their own reality, their own dream. When you are immune to the opinions and actions of others, you won’t be the victim of needless suffering. Gary, I love this! I really have never looked at it like that. One of my biggest things is taking what someone says or does personally. The above statement really puts it into perspective. I should print it and tape it to my wall! I always enjoy "reading you." Take care, Vicki
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"You mean, when I got arrested for selling drugz, it wasn’t because of me?" Well, in the context of this author’s point of view, no – it wasn’t because of you. He would say something like "it was because some entity decided that it wasn’t ok with them to sell drugs, decided what drugs were, etc. and decided to…. etc.. etc.. " It’s just an oblique view, I believe it was a Toltec spirituality thing, I read the book a few years back and don’t remember all the detail – but at the time it did seem to make some sense to me and made my thinking a little more expansive in some ways. This is what I was trying to encourage Steve to do. He may choose as he likes obviously; the outcomes in his life are his to live with, not mine. Having read enough of your thoughts Elliott, I know that you are quite intelligent, and your question is the (non-scrotal) jester/tester type Elliott-esque "thing" that you do – which I sometimes enjoy actually – so my explanation is really more for those who wouldn’t understand it on the same level that you surely do. I do think that it’s better to encourage than to discourage – all other things being equal. I also realize that all other things are *often* not equal. Most importantly, I do not want to impose any of my own values or suggest that they are somehow "better" or "worse" – again, "what is, is". Best 50 bucks I ever spent, I swear. (well, there was that one party in New York…but that’s a whole ‘nuther story…) G
– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – around 1) BE IMPECCABLE WITH YOUR WORD. Speak with integrity. Could you introduce me to him/her? 2) DON’T TAKE ANYTHING PERSONALLY. Nothing others do is because of you. You mean, when I got arrested for selling drugz, it wasn’t because of me? Why weren’t YOU my lawyer? 3) DON’T MAKE ASSUMPTIONS. Find the courage to ask questions and to express what you really want. Called ‘checking it out’. Yup – a biggie! 4) ALWAYS DO YOUR BEST. simply do your best, and you will avoid self-judgment, self-abuse, and regret. That was good until the self-abuse part came up. Made me think about Alice, and no way is that duck NOT into self-abuse… Check this book out Steve, I think it would turn your whole world around. That would take the ability to comprehend these four ‘essential’ ways of thinking and reacting. Burns does very much the same, although he pans the book (that he’s never read). I"d bet millions of blocks worth that he never reads either. — Elliott remove eee to eeemail http://home.earthlink.net/~ejk2/
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- Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – "I think one often doesn’t know what one has control of unless they go over and over it again." Steve, I really do try not to be mean, but Lord have mercy! What thing (give me just one example, just ONE) can you actually cite, that you cannot figure out whether or not you have control of, within…..let’s say …….hmm, one minute? Let me ask you a question Gary? Does or did anxiety ever overcome or intefere or sabotage the process of better decision making or making better conclusions or rational thought process ?I am willing to bet it did for lots of people here.
Of course. ? If the answer is yes you might then understand why sometimes people or some people go over the choices over and over. Be going over things , one hopes to consciously win the battle over what makes people stuck or making the wrong decisions or gaing more control .
Sounds like OCD now. Sometimes no matter how often we try to stop anxiety from interfering with our choices it will still win out. That doesn’t mean there isn’t good reasons to keep trying to understand the process untill you are able to overcome the things that you don’t want to have happen. more often.
Gotta keep trying. The alternative is not a real life. But neither is weighing possibilities to the exclusion of living. the process of what is or not certain in our lives is ongoing , especially if you come from dysfunctional family. I see some people do it better then others. They make a decision and they know why. They think ahead and are able to predict whats best for them.Even if they make a wrong decision it don’t bother them assuming they did the best they could.
And that’s the answer to personal contentment. Do something. Try things to change what is unacceptable in your life. If one or two don’t work out - try three and four. Fear is an anchor we have to ditch early in life, or the chain just gets thicker and harder to snap. As long as they learn when they made the wrong decision, they might be aware of it and do better next time.
Learning from mistakes even works for our pets. They most likely don’t need to process their thoughts outloud on the internet. In order to not make the same mistakes I made in past, I just took the therapy I learned and tried to go over what might work better in my head. Call that control or call that lack of control trying to gain more contol.
I can’t see what the hoohaa is about control We either have it or try to get as much as possible. It’s not an issue to anguish over, like whether we can make a car payment, or afford to eat this month. I try to do now what some people might have learned early on , and kind of laugh when people say they don’t like to hear that process for it says to me it probably hits a nerve The bottom line is taking that energy and utilizing it in a better way is certainly a little better way to gain more control in ones live.
It’s better to focus on successful functioning than to worry about control. Finally in the context of taking this simple thought That anxiety is information overload. If by just going over these thoughts , one utilizes that excess energy is that better or not?
When a system is near overload, it’s time to reduce input. If we can’t sit still long enough to contemplate alternatives or slower focussed conclusions, then anxiety might control the outcome and make not good rational decision making
Some people settle for decisions they make when drunk or stoned. Not all bad choices can be laid at the feet of anxiety. Gary with the context of having anxiety assuming one might go over things more often then others. .
Sure we do. And at some point, we should get sick of mulling over options, just say well, fuck it, and choose. People who are too limited to recognize all the variables are not going to sit and ponder for hours before buying a loaf of bread or accepting a dinner invitation. Life is a crapshoot. Try to make the best of the roll and stop hoping to beat the odds. Ma
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"I think one often doesn’t know what one has control of unless they go over and over it again." Steve, I really do try not to be mean, but Lord have mercy! What thing (give me just one example, just ONE) can you actually cite, that you cannot figure out whether or not you have control of, within…..let’s say …….hmm, one minute?
Let me ask you a question Gary? Does or did anxiety ever overcome or intefere or sabotage the process of better decision making or making better conclusions or rational thought process ?I am willing to bet it did for lots of people here. ? If the answer is yes you might then understand why sometimes people or some people go over the choices over and over. Be going over things , one hopes to consciously win the battle over what makes people stuck or making the wrong decisions or gaing more control . Sometimes no matter how often we try to stop anxiety from interfering with our choices it will still win out. That doesn’t mean there isn’t good reasons to keep trying to understand the process untill you are able to overcome the things that you don’t want to have happen. more often. the process of what is or not certain in our lives is ongoing , especially if you come from dysfunctional family. I see some people do it better then others. They make a decision and they know why. They think ahead and are able to predict whats best for them.Even if they make a wrong decision it don’t bother them assuming they did the best they could. As long as they learn when they made the wrong decision, they might be aware of it and do better next time. They most likely don’t need to process their thoughts outloud on the internet. In order to not make the same mistakes I made in past, I just took the therapy I learned and tried to go over what might work better in my head. Call that control or call that lack of control trying to gain more contol. I try to do now what some people might have learned early on , and kind of laugh when people say they don’t like to hear that process for it says to me it probably hits a nerve The bottom line is taking that energy and utilizing it in a better way is certainly a little better way to gain more control in ones live. Finally in the context of taking this simple thought That anxiety is information overload. If by just going over these thoughts , one utilizes that excess energy is that better or not? If we can’t sit still long enough to contemplate alternatives or slower focussed conclusions, then anxiety might control the outcome and make not good rational decision making Gary with the context of having anxiety assuming one might go over things more often then others. . – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – Is a
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Gary said: DON’T TAKE ANYTHING PERSONALLY. Nothing others do is because of you. What others say and do is a projection of their own reality, their own dream. When you are immune to the opinions and actions of others, you won’t be the victim of needless suffering. Gary, I love this! I really have never looked at it like that. One of my biggest things is taking what someone says or does personally. The above statement really puts it into perspective. I should print it and tape it to my wall! I always enjoy "reading you." Take care, Vicki
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"I think one often doesn’t know what one has control of unless they go over and over it again." Steve, I really do try not to be mean, but Lord have mercy! What thing (give me just one example, just ONE) can you actually cite, that you cannot figure out whether or not you have control of, within…..let’s say …….hmm, one minute? To my way of thinking, "not much control" is essentially NO control, because I can’t decide exactly how it will be. Control MOST of the time still means some lack, something less than 100%, so it sorta falls into the same thing = no control. I guess I can control who I buy Milk from – unless they close the store, then I have to make a new decision, find a new store – so the store that closed, they had control for a brief time, eh? Again, looks like something less than 100%. (the control freaks are gunna start movin’ around in that chair right about now….) You can control how much salt you eat. I can’t think (offhand) of any lack there, so I guess you have 100%, unless some restaurant slips some in, but you can eat only at home, unless you run out of food, but what if the grocer got sick, closed his store, and you GOTTA eat in a restaurant? Hmm… smells like 99% is loomin’ large all of a sudden…. Rain: Nope, no control there. None, ever Getting wet: Sometimes can control that; an umbrella purchase? raises the percentage way up. Living indoors? Almost total control. Once in a great while, I do get caught in the rain, so I guess this one – it’s not 100%. But – What if you live in New Orleans? They had none. Soooo, again it’s hard to know for a fact, FACT – that you’ve got 100% on that one either. Environment: None. Even if I make my own haircombs and weave my own socks, most people won’t, and so it will go on and ON. Stop envisioning some stupid alternative CAUSE IT AIN’T GUNNA HAPPEN !!!!!! I’m sorry, but it ain’t. If it was in my sphere of control, I’d change it, just for you. But – it ain’t. THAT’S IT. Noise: Trickier one. You’re driving, it’s noisy. Not much control. It’s quiet in the house, except if an ambulance drives by – so again, no control. See how easy this is? Other people: None, period – ever. We envision all kinds of alternatives, but — it ain’t gunna happen. Sorry Mr/Mrs. Manager guy/gal, you may think otherwise, but ya can’t watch it all 24/7. Not ALL of it. Sorry. Machinery, radios, lights, filing cabinet placement: Pretty much under our control, unless something breaks and we don’t personally know exactly how to fix it…. then it gets a little trickier. But if we’re smart, we put a contingency plan in place (like not living from paycheck to paycheck, having some savings goin’ on – and you pay someone else to fix it – boom, done.) Not complete control (so by my own previous definition = No control, because you can’t always decide how it’s gunna be, but you can have most of the control most of the time, and most people can live with that.) And, in 1929, a savings plan didn’t help much for a lotta folks. Never again? Maybe, maybe not. Is a pattern emerging yet, in your mind? I can go on, if ya need me to. Let’s get to the point – there is not a lot of control to be had, we have varying amounts of control. Yes, I can have 100% control over what kind of way the silverware is arranged in the drawer – unless… (New Orleans? 9/11? Earthquake?) I’d like to introduce you to something you may find interesting: The Four Agreements ( a book actually, you can read it if you like "The Four Agreements, author: Don Miguel Ruiz) 1) BE IMPECCABLE WITH YOUR WORD. Speak with integrity. Say only what you mean. Avoid using the word to speak against yourself or to gossip about others. Use the power of your word in the of truth and love. 2) DON’T TAKE ANYTHING PERSONALLY. Nothing others do is because of you. What others say and do is a projection of their own reality, their own dream. When you are immune to the opinions and actions of others, you won’t be the victim of needless suffering. 3) DON’T MAKE ASSUMPTIONS. Find the courage to ask questions and to express what you really want. Communicate with others as clearly as you can to avoid misunderstandings, sadness, and drama. With just this one agreement, you can completely transform your life. 4) ALWAYS DO YOUR BEST. Your best is going to change from moment to moment; it will be different when you are tired as opposed to well-rested. Under any circumstance, simply do your best, and you will avoid self-judgment, self-abuse, and regret. Check this book out Steve, I think it would turn your whole world around. Not because you’ve never heard these four concepts, but because of the discussion that is used to support them in some detail. It expands out beyond the individual, to encompass community and society issues. Gary – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – How does one go about convincing oneself that worrying about things one has no control over just causes needless anxiety and suffering and is stupid? I think one often doesn’t know what one has control of unless they go over and over it again. I’m not having any luck doing so. Xanax works but requires a prescription – mine is about run out; I try my best to avoid going to doctors – they worry me more than anything else. Self-hynosis doesn’t seem to help. Anti-anxiety remedies in books don’t seem to help. If I could convince myself to stop needless worrying all these would be unneeded. TIA — Untie the two knots to email me "I’m not a member of any organized political party. I’m a Democrat." Will Rogers well you certai nly have one form of anxiety scenario down pat.. The idea that we put ideas in our head that maybe we have no way to actually follow thru on , is a good question . . One might suggest lots of people never challenge themselves on things they can’t affect because they deduct rightly or wrongly that its useless energy .At the same token lots of people put up choices and variables for different ideas only to sometimes get disappointed. Sometimes though those variables pan out. Lets assume your own disability or different because of anxiety. In order to survive you have to say to yourself, I must not only seek an employer who understands my condition but must be able to accomplish the task at hand. What are my options. You begin to see alternatives to lots of things because of your position in life . If your poor you begin to look at different types of sales , and aftermarket stores to shop in like thrift . When successful you see the success thinking about different variables brings. However when not successful its often like running in place. The same things that might work one day may lead to a dead end the next. The idea that most people never formulate ideas as much as I do even on the net, says I do allot of introspection maybe or maybe others do and don’t post here.. I think I was lost in space for so long that when i finally realized how to get out of smoking 4 packs of cigaretts and mental hospitals and day programs, the ability to take that excess energy and try to verbalize it was one of the few things that just happened to be left.. Lets put it this way, there are more people on my block, then everyone who posts here. xtimes that by around 10 millions streets and you will realize most people with anxiety have no desire to post here in this group
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How does one go about convincing oneself that worrying about things one has no control over just causes needless anxiety and suffering and is stupid?
I think one often doesn’t know what one has control of unless they go over and over it again. I’m not having any luck doing so. – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – Xanax works but requires a prescription – mine is about run out; I try my best to avoid going to doctors – they worry me more than anything else. Self-hynosis doesn’t seem to help. Anti-anxiety remedies in books don’t seem to help. If I could convince myself to stop needless worrying all these would be unneeded. TIA — Untie the two knots to email me "I’m not a member of any organized political party. I’m a Democrat." Will Rogers well you certai
nly have one form of anxiety scenario down pat.. The idea that we put ideas in our head that maybe we have no way to actually follow thru on , is a good question . . One might suggest lots of people never challenge themselves on things they can’t affect because they deduct rightly or wrongly that its useless energy .At the same token lots of people put up choices and variables for different ideas only to sometimes get disappointed. Sometimes though those variables pan out. Lets assume your own disability or different because of anxiety. In order to survive you have to say to yourself, I must not only seek an employer who understands my condition but must be able to accomplish the task at hand. What are my options. You begin to see alternatives to lots of things because of your position in life . If your poor you begin to look at different types of sales , and aftermarket stores to shop in like thrift . When successful you see the success thinking about different variables brings. However when not successful its often like running in place. The same things that might work one day may lead to a dead end the next. The idea that most people never formulate ideas as much as I do even on the net, says I do allot of introspection maybe or maybe others do and don’t post here.. I think I was lost in space for so long that when i finally realized how to get out of smoking 4 packs of cigaretts and mental hospitals and day programs, the ability to take that excess energy and try to verbalize it was one of the few things that just happened to be left.. Lets put it this way, there are more people on my block, then everyone who posts here. xtimes that by around 10 millions streets and you will realize most people with anxiety have no desire to post here in this group
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How does one go about convincing oneself that worrying about things one has no control over just causes needless anxiety and suffering and is stupid? I’m not having any luck doing so. Xanax works but requires a prescription – mine is about run out; I try my best to avoid going to doctors – they worry me more than anything else. Self-hynosis doesn’t seem to help. Anti-anxiety remedies in books don’t seem to help. If I could convince myself to stop needless worrying all these would be unneeded.
So you’ve added anxiety about running out of Xanax to your pile of worries. Force yourself to go to a doctor and if he recommends a psychiatrist, go there as well. Chances are, you will not be able to break the cycle on your own. Few people do. Drugs and therapy in combination bring relief and often return the sense of control that anxiety takes. Ma
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I don’t know how many people live on my street, it’s very windy/curvy/tortuous (Tanya will dislike the last word for it’s ostentation, but like it because it resembles a different one…wink – love ya anyway!) and it’s out in the "country" a bit. (I prefer to see a pond behind my house instead of another house – that’s completely a personal choice, but I’m beginning to stray from the issue – I never do that! Hah) Mr. Knecht: The book by Dr. Burns that Elliott recommended for your reading is definitely an excellent one in my opinion also. I read it about 10 years ago or so, and don’t recall all the specific things, but I was not having problems with "depression" at the time either, and got a lot out of reading it. The one thing that stands out in my recollection was the very good discussion of "thinking errors" and their sequalae, in terms of our thoughts (worry obviously being one possible thought). There is, incidentally, about a 75% overlap between depression and anxiety anyway, only a comparatively small number of people have exclusively one or the other. Couple that with the plain fact that most anxiety treatment of late is initiated with anti-depressants – the distinction becomes a little murky – unless you are highly devoted to DSM stuff; I’m not, although it has it’s place and utility. One advisor said "what is, is." You come away from that sort of therapy thinking, "I just paid 50 bucks for THAT?". Truth is, that person has given you a very powerful piece of wisdom. It’s raining, we can’t eat outside today like we planned – that’s it, no point in ranting, worrying that it will rain next time, wondering what the guests will think, and an infinite litany of other worries. "I’m tired" – that’s it, you’re tired, no point in worrying about what will happen, how long you’ll sleep, blah blah ad infinitum…"This person is divisively subtle in their use of unkindness as a tool, is passive-aggressive as hell, and never really wants to help me, but is just filled with clever derision and cutting wit" – that it, that’s what is (we all know one someplace in our lives somewhere) – no point in trying to change them, reason with them, worry about what they’ll do next, etc.. What they are is what they are. What the stock market will do is what it will do. Obviously the list is infinite, and I *may have* over-covered it (just giving Tanya some fodder – I need her to keep me humble – heh.) but you get the idea. I think the spiritual advisor who said "what is, is" earned her 50 bucks. You may not -who cares (an example of a possible needless worry – will the audience here approve? what if they don’t? what if they react with hostility? on and on – it can drive ya crazy man. Worse yet, "what if they change their mind later?" LOL – it really can go ON and ON if you let it.) Dr. David H Barlow, for about 16 years was the director of the "Center for Stress and Anxiety Management" at the State Univ. of New York at Albany. He is reasonably well-known in the field of anxiety study; he’s also fairly "non-medication" oriented. Other physicians and practitioners are fairly comfortable with using medications to manage anxiety symptoms, and some are very quick to use them. A happy medium, and your own best judgment applied toward yourself on your behalf can go a long way sometimes. So can listening to people who have applied years and years of their lives to studying and attempting to help sufferers of these disorders. You can factor their ideas INTO your own judgments, as they may or may not apply to you. Because anxiety and worry are somewhat lacking in rational basis – it’s not reasonable at all for anyone to suggest what you should or should not worry about. That having been said, I would have to submit that doctors might not be THE scariest thing on earth (although some I’ve known certainly had the capacity to cause all manner of angst.. – but what other occupation cannot say the same? Let’s consider Nurse Ratched – just for fun, of course). Now me, I’m worried (right now – next month it will be a new topic du jour) about the people who post in chat rooms that "The crocodiles in New Orleans will have lots of nigger meat!" – those people, and the culture which spawns them cause me a bit of worry right now, but it will pass, and ultimately isn’t under my control anyway. Xanax relieves symptoms, but as LM articulated very well in a recent post, anyone can "find a way for anxiogenesis to surpass the Xanax, antidepressant, etc." (not quoted verbatim, but adapted to fit my sentence). His point was (and is well-supported by research) that people who get therapy AND medicine tend to fare well, as compared to medicine-alone group. This reality, coupled with your "fear of doctors" makes me think that you might benefit from seeing a therapist/psychologist type, preferably one who specializes in treating anxiety disorders. Just removing that labcoat, exam table, and substituting a recliner or two and some nice artwork in the room could make all the difference for you – Seriously. In the meantime however, I highly, HIGHLY suggest that you at least get a new Rx. for some more Xanax, because if you’ve been using it and stop taking it, your anxiety level is likely to go straight off the chart and then we won’t really be able to get you to do anything. Perhaps you could send a fax, explaining your problem to the doctor, along with a request for recommendation to a therapist, and your pharmacy of choice & their phone number. Kindly, Gary "Worrying is like paying interest on a debt you never owed" – Mark Twain
– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – shuffled How does one go about convincing oneself that worrying about things one has no control over just causes needless anxiety and suffering and is stupid? I’m not having any luck doing so. Xanax works but requires a prescription – mine is about run out; I try my best to avoid going to doctors – they worry me more than anything else. Self-hynosis doesn’t seem to help. Anti-anxiety remedies in books don’t seem to help. If I could convince myself to stop needless worrying all these would be unneeded. So you’ve added anxiety about running out of Xanax to your pile of worries. I don’t see that being said. I see the fear of going to a doctor – period. Force yourself to go to a doctor and if he recommends a psychiatrist, go there as well. Chances are, you will not be able to break the cycle on your own. Few people do. Drugs and therapy in combination bring relief and often return the sense of control that anxiety takes. I agree, but one must know how many people live on their block in order for anything to work. — Elliott remove eee to eeemail http://home.earthlink.net/~ejk2/
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How does one go about convincing oneself that worrying about things one has no control over just causes needless anxiety and suffering and is stupid? I’m not having any luck doing so. Xanax works but requires a prescription – mine is about run out; I try my best to avoid going to doctors – they worry me more than anything else. Self-hynosis doesn’t seem to help. Anti-anxiety remedies in books don’t seem to help. If I could convince myself to stop needless worrying all these would be unneeded. TIA — Untie the two knots to email me "I’m not a member of any organized political party. I’m a Democrat." Will Rogers
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Have you ever met anyone from this group in person? Or, have you ever spoken to them on the phone? Jackie ~*~My greatest fear is there is no such thing as PMS and this is really my personality~*~ — The charter is available at: http://readystump.algebra.com/~asapm 
You and your pedantry, LOL! Zelf zou ik omgevings-trekken nooit uitproberen maar dat moet je natuurlijk zelf weten. ;-p Het wordt steeds maller met die jongen hoor ! Ik als moderator denk aan akelige stappen enzo. Toedels van Anna 